Culture of Contact Episode 31: Heidi Hollis Round 2
Played: 2545 | Download | Duration: 00:00:00
Author/experiencer Heidi Hollis returns to the show to talk about her new book Jesus Is No Joke. How does she know this? Because she met him. (Top that, Pope!)
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Mmmmmm, spiced ham.
Haven't listened to the episode yet but had to ask the question, wasn't there enough to keep you occupied in Hawaii?
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Jer
I'm gonna get me a podcast so I can hit on Heidi too!
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*************************
MP3 VERSION OF PODCAST
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http://wurl.us/23e4
To download, click the file named:
CoC Ep31- Heidi Hollis Round 2.mp3
Also, I've uploaded the first interview Jeremy did with Heidi back in January of this year. The file is called:
CoC Ep20- Heidi Hollis Round 1.mp3
Cheers!
LL
Look for the file named:
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While I almost had the same experience as Heidi, I have to disagree with her about the disconnect she claims there is between what she went through versus what you Jeremy and others experienced.
The evidence is pointing toward the direction of 'personalized' experiences.
How else would 'Jesus' speak to her in English? Or the 'skin-walkers' for that matter?
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Heidi is undergoing her own Shamanic spiritual journey. Such a journey has many paths, and one of them is the Way of Jesus. This is a valid path and should be respected. Others can theorize as they wish, but Heidi is the final decision maker for the context and integrity of her own experience. I realize there are perhaps people (or at least one person) here who is vehemently against organized religion, and therefore Jesus gets little respect by such individuals, who may be bearing their own wounds from the institutions AROUND spiritual figures. But the spiritual figure remains separate and transcends such manmade dogmas, and has great power and wisdom.
Even if Jesus was never a historical figure, after 2000 years of adoration and supplication by countless millions of human beings, a gestalt of energy "in his name" does appear to exist and manifest as Jesus. This energy is life giving and benevolent, perhaps the manifestation of the BEST of the human character. Those who choose this energy/being as their spiritual master choose a sublime and meaningful path to wisdom. There is no need to bring aliens into it, pulling something that is perhaps mystical and true into the rather flatlands of mundane alien trickery and illusions.
Let Heidi be.
As an amusing asside, I do think it would have been appropriate for Jeremy and Heidi to do a duet of the old time gospel favorite, still popular in many Sunday schools "Yes, Jesus Loves Me".
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Jesus = failed eschatological prophet whose name has survived 2,000 years because the Catholic beast kept him on constant life support.
There is absolutely no evidence at all that energy forms manifest into physical or spiritual reality simply because lots of people believe in them.
It is a claim oft put forth by UFO researchers with a paranormal bent, some of whom I respect, but that doesn't make it at all valid. I believe that people who discuss this possibility watched Peter Pan one too many times as a child, picked up the idea that fairies die when people don't believe in them, and then just ran with it.
I do not believe Heidi. She seems to me to be either a liar or a lunatic.
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Perhaps a little of both, liar and lunatic, much like Jesus and his followers.
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I do not believe in ufos. People who report seeing them are lieing or deluded and probably both.
I do not believe in alien abductions. People who report having them are lieing or deluded and probably both.
I do not believe that rocks can fall from the sky, so people who report meteors are lieing or deluded and probably both.
I do not believe that domesticated animals like dogs have emotions, just instinctive reactions. Those who believe in animal emotional connections are lieing, deluded and probably both.
I certainly do not believe in life after death, so those who report seeing ghosts or having Near Death Experiences or seeing/communicating with loved dead relatives or friends are lieing, deluded and probably both.
I do not believe that gay people are naturally that way. Those who say they are gay (rather than having made a choice to sin against God), are lieing, deluded and probably both.
I do not believe that any race but the Caucasian race has the abilities to rule the world. Any evidence contrary to this is trumped up lies, some secret help from caucasians (behind the scenes) or delusion, or all of these.
See, this is an easy game to play. Anyone can do it, and does! This is one of the games that makes the world go round.
Peace to you.
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Wow. Pretty angry. Not good karma y'know.
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Karma, too, is make believe. It's a human concept that arises out of the falsely pious idea of crime and punishment, eye for an eye, etc.
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CBF,
You are very certain of your beliefs, in the same way a dogmatic Bible thumping fundamentalist is sure of his facts. While the facts differ greatly, you seem to have the same attitude that your views are absolutist. What scares me is that attitude, not so much the "facts" it grasps to its bosum.
I respect your right to your views, and find them intriguing. What else do or don't you believe? I think I'd find your overall belief system interesting. Now you may think you don't even have a belief system, that your views are all factual, but everyone has a belief system.
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I will say that my previous comments about Heidi being either a liar or a lunatic or both were indeed borderline rude and uncalled for. Forgive me. Sometimes I pop off without thinking about how others will feel.
That said, I honestly don't know what to make of Hollis' experiences. Surely she has had some range of bizarre experiences; perhaps it's just the way she interprets them that bothers me.
I don't want to talk to you about my general belief system. If you have specific questions, however, I will answer them.
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Karma, too, is make believe. It's a human concept that arises out of the falsely pious idea of crime and punishment, eye for an eye, etc.
Actually, I meant it as snark, but you took that statement pretty seriously. Again the anger is obvious.
Are you a strict Empiricist? Do you only adhere to evidence given by the five basic senses?
As Anonymous noticed, there is certitude there, as sure as Heidi's.
Do you contend that Heidi is insane because she interpreted her experience as a religious one? I agree the religious view is simplistic and narrow, but so can the grey alien interpretation.
Are these people suffering group insanity?
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The anger is obvious? You are too sensitive to even the slightest disagreeable sentiments, I think. I expressed no anger at all. Should I preface every disagreement with "I respect your opinion, but..."? I will not do it.
No, I am not an empiricist.
What's wrong with certitude? I can be wrong, sure. I admit that as a possibility. You people behave as if you've been castrated. Why do we all have to act so damned sensitive all of the time in order not to be considered angry and repressed and so forth.
No, I do not think that Heidi is insane because she interpreted her experience in religious terms. She's insane because she refuses to consider that the nature of her experiences -- OBE phenomena -- are very akin to, as Mr. Vaeni said, lucid dreams and thus the vagaries of the human imagination. I practice OBE and Astral Projection all of the time and see bizarre things every time; the difference between me and Heidi is that I realize that these experiences exist only in mind imagination and not in reality.
Are these people suffering group insanity? No. You appear to have formulated precise expectations about the beliefs and attitudes of those who would dare to disagree with your new age baloney. Yes, I think that UFOs are real. Yes, I think the abduction phenomenon is real. Yes, I think that people see apparitions that they call ghosts and spirits and so forth. I have experienced all of these things. However, I am a student, first and foremost, of epistemology and thus remain mindful of the limits of knowledge.
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Sometimes I pop off without thinking about how others will feel.
Pretty obvious. But you're not hurting my feelings any and I'm sure not "New Age" by any stretch of the term! LOL!
It is not 'sensitive' to expect a little tolerance and civility.
But these are just words on a blog, so it don't mean squat.
Anyway, Heidi felt threatened by the second 'vision' she had and she responded in a way she felt she had to. Maybe she doesn't realize these things could be 'mind imaginations' or lucid dreams. I've had these same visions Heidi had, only not so intense, and after studying this for a while I found it was related to a form of sleep paralysis the Japanese called kanashibari because every time it occurred, I felt like I couldn't breathe.
So cut Heidi some slack, at least her Jesus seems to be a loving one, not one who advocates Holy War.
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I would agree that her experience could be described as 'shamanic' in nature and I wasn't putting her down for her Christian belief. I was just noting that her experience kind of resembles Strieber's and others. Only with a different cast of characters.
I prefer my shamanic journey with a little chemical assistance though.
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The only problem with those who see Jesus as opposed to aliens, is that they answer and pose all questions, (even those to themselves, I guess), as one of faith - so there can't ever be any meaningful questions...or answers. it's enough to know you should just "finish your book." Nevermind how kooky The Lord's entrance - and nevermind any staged forces of evil production when He exits. And in lieu of of a book, I assume any work will do. Gee, that sounds just the like the Midwestern Presbyterian Jesus I was raised with. Gee...how...uninteresting.
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What bothers me the most about all of this is the assertion that Jesus will feed the non-believers to terrifying monsters again and again for all eternity. I reject this kind of garbage prima facia. "If you do not believe the same thing that we believe, you will burn forever and ever - amen." What?! That's divine justice, is it? WHY do so many people believe this? To reduce Christianity, Christianism, and the meaning of the Earth to beleiving that some thing is true or false is ridiculous far past the point of stupidity. I don't like being told this. The testimony of a Christian, which is what Ms. Hollis gave us today, necessarily threatens the disbelievers with eternal damnation.
I question the importance of faith. Why is it so important? Christians throw "faith" around and expect others to understand why it's so grand. Believing in a thing for which the evidence is wanting? How is that desirable? Why would God condition our eternal destiny on those grounds? "Did you believe in Jesus? No? Then you will burn! Sorry, I love you and all, but you did not believe. You had to believe not to burn, that was the deal."
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I think Heidi was charming. It's just that her experience does nothing for me because it's buttressed by faith. It's where her story begins and ends. Everyone else with an anomalous experience has to question everything. Not her. But praying to and beseeching an omniscient being? Doesn't the Lord already know? So, what's the point? What's the point of her being contacted? I guess it was just to keep her nose to the grindstone. He did tell her "she'd have to show them something." I guess he sensed that her 'work ethic' must have been slipping. I'd have one or two questions for Jesus, but Heidi had none - and she had four shots at it. Isn't she the least bit curious? Does that seem odd to anyone else? I don't mean to insult anyone on List, but I guess this is exactly why I missed the point of Christianity.
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On the one hand, I can see why Heidi would not ask questions, if she truly felt that she had encountered the presence of an all-powerful all-loving being like Jesus. What question would really be meaningful during such a total experience? I think I would be like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming semi-truck at night. I would just stand there drolling with my mouth open, which I suspect has been the reaction of many people when faced with all types of anomalous encounters. I would have been MORE surprised if Heidi had approached Jesus in the style of Lois Lane, trying to get an exclusive interview from Superman for the Daily Planet! Everyone has a different level of equanimity, and Heidi doesn't seem to be someone who asks a lot of deep questions. Nothing wrong with that. She has had supposedly a lot of paranormal experiences, but she seems to easily categorize these in terms of good guys and bad guys. This gives her a sense of where she is (like one of those maps at Disneyland that say "YOU ARE HERE").
On the other hand (which is more cynical), what could be better for book sales then to get a firm recommendation by Jesus Christ? Afterall, he told her to finish the book! That must mean it is a hell of an important book!! So we should read her book because it has the endorsement of Jesus Christ, which is almost as good as an endorsement by Oprah!
Now, on Christianity. My perception is that in ancient times, most gods were perceived as having a rather bad attitude, and in need of sacrifice. This was the norm, and the Jews even want to bring barbaric animal sacrifice back to the restored Temple in Jerusalemm some day (so that shows how far Jewish thinking has come in a few thousand years - we will be back to around the clock slaughter of doves, lamps and cattle to appease the Jewish god!). Anyway, Christianity fits right into this scenario. Humans are fallen, and in god's black list. But through the atonement of his son, who take on all the punishment that was appropriate to the rest of us, he became our savior. We are atoned and saved by acknowledging that action and his divinity.
Now, I would argue that the above religious system is hopelessly outdated to many rational beings in the 21st century, so it seems absurd. So be it. Yet it offers solace to many people, and I therefore let it be. My 96 year old dad finds strength and courage to face each day because he believes that Jesus is there with him. I would never take that away from him simply to force him to face up to 21st century nihilist thought. What would I give him in its place, AMERICAN IDOL and Viagra?
Progressive Christianity has evolved beyond the original story, now seeing it as a metaphor for coming to terms with the different aspects of human nature. In that context, we each have a split mind: ego and Christ. Each moment we can (if we wish) observe ourselves and choose if we wish to be the ego self or the "Christ" within us. Jesus represents that choice.
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Good interview. One of the things that stuck out for me is the fact that she felt the need to assert that "she has never been abducted" again... and again... and AGAIN. You never once asked her if she had been abducted, and yet she must have said it at least 5 times.
I think this is fairly significant, and from a psychological standpoint it tells me that she's almost certainly been abducted, and that whatever is associated with these abductions is something that she doesn't want to acknowledge.
I could be wrong, but that's just my intuition on the subject.
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I thought Heidi was making the "no abduction" claim because it supported her view that invoking the name and power of Jesus Christ will end or protect a person from being abducted. So it might have been her way of saying she has not been abducted because she believes in Jesus. I can't read her mind, but that's the more superficial logical sequence of possible thought.
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I was under the impression that she had "entity" and shadow people experiences long before she invoked the name of Jesus. So even if saying Jesus will stop abductions, I doubt it can go back in time and erase the abductions that already happened.
Because of this, I don't see why she must assert that she has *never* been abducted. I could see why she would say that she's had no abductions since meeting Jesus, but not never.
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I was under that impression too.
Maybe her subconscious mind blotted the memory out after the Jesus epiphany?
Or just conveniently 'forgetting'?
Most people wouldn't put religious visions on the same plane as greys, alien abductions and UFOs, even though they might be from the same cause.
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Ms. Hollis seems like a nice enough woman who may have had some kind of experience... making it all fit into her personal paradigm by using thoughts and expressions meaningful and comforting to her. If she was Ezekiel she'd be talking about "wheels within wheels" and fire chariots.
Presumably, if she had an adjacent religious god-head to focus on, Hindi, Muslim, et insig al she'd evoke _that_ deity, eh?
The singularity with Christianity in particular is the assumptional baggage going along with it; its presumptive mantle of presumed respect compelled for its "holy" institution precluding any real discussion about its relevance, its validity, or its appropriateness.
The dismissive if too convenient attitude that I would likely understand were I not so obviously "hell-bound" is not remotely helpful and needlessly combative. Why combative? Because most "Christ-ians" believing their non-believing fellows hell bound have no respect for same.
Credible persons still touting this smarmy religious meme? Just good folks, at best, trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. At worst... officious sociopathic popinjays imposing their own fears and terrors on the persons around them.
I'm sure Ms. Hollis is one of the former. That said, I'll judge a tree by its fruit always, and Ms. Hollis must ripen somewhat, you know?
Still, I won't discount her personally for her Christianity despite the blood and ignorance filled fruit that tree historically bears. Will she discount me for my decided lack of same?
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Yeah, I didn't want to mention what I find abhorrent about the religion itself -- untold millions dead, countless wars (including the present one in Iraq, and a domestic one against science), and the fact that when pressed, Heidi would ultimately require I go to Hell. Other than that, of course - she's charming! I was just taken aback by her lack of curiosity - even after the fact when she now has time to reflect. One can hardly blame her - lack of intellectual curiosity has been made popular and even branded these days.
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yeah yeah yeah -- but doesn't Paris have the cutest little dog... and can't people just leave Britney _alone_?
¥
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Jer,
I'm listening to this right now... she's a nice gal, and I don't buy a word of her stories. WHW brings up her lack of curiosity, which I think is key to realizing that she's no researcher, she's a doe-eyed believer.
You're going to Hawaii? Lucky bastard, have a great time!
dB
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Wow...
I dunno about Heidi Hollis...
Unfortunately in her first interview she nervously laughed - A LOT - throughout.
Now..
Hate to say it, but I really think she talks crap. Its inconsistent.
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Can't say I wouldn't try to find comfort somewhere if I were of the abducted variety. Some find the discomfort in not knowing ... comfortable. I operate from the latter category, but I haven't had the experience, thank you Whoever you are. Yet we demand that experiencers cowtow to our particular belief systems and the not-knowing crowd assumes their stance doesn't reside in some sort of faith. But the fact that we question anyone's answers requires a sort of faith in that "we" are right in our not knowing, not labeling. Swiss cheese though humility and peace of a particular sort can also be found in any stance.
Will there be peace in a particulart stance though? I haven't found that to be so, but I can't begrudge Heidie her willingness to settle on her answer. If the goal is peace, she may have adopted the very thing that will work for her. Doesn't mean she's adopted all the folderal that goes along with the Christian history.
Anonymous mentioned there being a path. Paths tend to meander so where she is today may not be where she is tomorrow. Maybe it's best we just recognize that she is where she is for now, just like the rest of us.
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Great comment with compassion. I don't know what Heidi said that would be used to justify the generic attacks on Christianity here. What has that really got to do with Heidi? OK, you don't agree with her belief system, so what? Shall we discuss Christianity through the ages and turn the comments into an anti-religious rant? Heidi finds Jesus a comforting figure, and ascribes to the Bible. She is not a philosopher. She never pretended to be. If this was an interview with C. S. Lewis (now dead Christian apologist) or even Pat Robertson, I could see the logic of the bitter responses about Christianity. But Heidi seems to be a nice person who has a basic belief system that works for her, especially in her world of paranormal realities. Is her explanation true? Perhaps not. So what? Would we prefer her to be an existentialist nihilist who needs to take Valium, Proxac and a shot of Brandy every few hours just to function? As I said earlier, let her be.
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Heidi seems like a truly nice person - engaging - charming - but that's not the point - at least, not the point I was trying to make. Many equally charming people find this subject intellectually, morally and emotionally challenging, and specifically because they think it's important enough to ask themselves and others some difficult questions. I don't have any problem with her finding peace, but I do feel uncomfortable about whether or not she's added anything to the discussion. I'd like her to do a little more than slap a Jesus sticker on her experience, say every other abductee or contactee is wrong (why is this so patently obvious to her?), and call that a book. I don't even care what conclusion she came to about her experience, or if she ever came to a conclusion at all. I'd just ask for evidence of an honest search - and I don't think she's given us one -- not in this interview anyway. It's more or less a proclamation. Nice person - empty interview.
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Guess I should have asked if there were a sustained peace to be found in a particular stance. Haven't found it, if so.
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Anon;
Nonsense -- why should she get a by just because she ascribes to the 'official' religion?
It's her belief system, or lack of same, filters what she would sell (the book Jesus told her to finish before he sent her out to be tormented by demons?) to the rest of us.
She's a big girl, I'm betting and would look askance at your what... chivalry? Or is it the criticism of the official religion at the root of your concern?
¥
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I guess in a way I am being patronizing towards Heidi. Call it chivalry, if you must. But I recall many years ago Art Bell had a guest whose claim to fame was that dogs go to heaven. OK, fine. Well, the interview lasted about 10 minutes, because it was obvious that the woman who had written a book about dogs going to heaven was (shall we say) a very dim (if not burnt out) bulb in the mental department. Art Bell discreetly ended the interview and had open lines the rest of the evening.
Perhaps I put Heidi sort of in the same league in the sense that I just don't think criticizing or arguing with the "dogs go to heaven" lady would have been intelligent or fruitful. Ditto for Heidi.
I do not know why Jeremy felt her worth 1 interview, much less 2. Perhaps he finds her fascinating, charming and/or amusing.
If Heidi had proclaimed that a great Indian Shaman appeared to her, would you or anyone be fussing about the evils of Christianity? No, you'd probably be excited by the implications.
As usual, Alfred, you make a subtle attack on others, e.g., wondering if I have an ulterior motive of not bearing criticism of the official religion. I am not a Christian, if that matters, so stop making any dialogue personal right away. By "going after" Heidi, I just feel (my opinion, that's all) that you are shooting at a duck trapped in a barrel. There is no way she can intellectually defend herself, because she does not have that capability. She is simply telling us what she has experienced and believes, just as Jeff Ritzmann and others have done before.
Maybe Jeremy can track down and book the eccentric dithering lady who thinks that dogs go to heaven, and you can have a field day, eh?
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Right... So -- along with Ms. Hollis and the 'official' religion, add yourself to the list of that which shall not be criticized?
Seems a pretty spare forum if you only output and accept no input. Maybe _any_ input is an attack through your filters?
"As usual"...? LOL.
¥
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Oh, I get it now. The real beef is with Jeremy. Whyn't ya just say so, whw? LOL
Chivalry has nothing to do with it, Alfred. That's just a quasi insult so stop it.
A lot of the time I do agree with you so I'm not looking to bust your chops. I just plain don't agree that Heidi should be nailed on your cross for having some faith in something that gives her comfort, especially when you take comfort in whatever it is that gets you through the night.
Compassion is not chivalrous. It's just decent.
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"Oh, I get it now. The real beef is with Jeremy. Whyn't ya just say so, whw? LOL"
He asked great questions - she had no answers. Please Lord, make this thread stop... Well, there...it did, by God! Thank you, Jesus!
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"I just plain don't agree that Heidi should be nailed on your cross for having some faith in something that gives her comfort, especially when you take comfort in whatever it is that gets you through the night."
Who's hammer-swinging?
Would you vouchsafe a "scientologist" the same consideration... show that same "compassion."
...and consider further, what you propose would have more validity but that she is selling a book based on what I've personally found to be a pretty dodgy meme, all things considered, and doesn't that remove her from the safety zone you feel she should have? Shouldn't she have her metal tested to a degree, given she's writing with some authority, passion, and proselytization on the nature of reality and how others might frame it for themselves?
¥
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Religion makes me urp, okay? That doesn't mean I don't know religious people who aren't profoundly joyful, compassionate and at peace. Again, it has nothing to do with Christianity's bloody history, but belief in their personal experiences with a Christ-like (to them) entity's influence in their lives.
So she wrote a book about what works for her. I'll never buy it. But she has the right to voice what she believes. She's in no safety zone, but neither does she deserve a blow by blow account of the atrocities committed in Christ's name. That's way off the subject, imo.
If her terror was relieved by invoking Christ's name, so be it. It it works for other Christians who may the same terrifying experiences, okay. That's all I'm saying.
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True. We've certainly said all that can be said, still...
"Urp" or no, and however well intentioned as I wrote above... but for Christianity and its son —or brother, remembering Issac and Ishmael— Islam, we'd be in a more galactic community inhabiting a living ring of habitat between Mars and Jupiter, I suspect. Precious little hyperbole there, just so you know I know the difference.
Back to Ms. Hollis, when you write a book, don't you think you should be able to field questions about it, find out if it's worth your time and money?
Too, as an individual, I'm expected to credit my assertions, and I'm criticized if I do not. A grand if not great institution of aggregate Christianity can expect no less an expectation from me.
Who am _I_ do demand such? Just a guy on site paying freight, like yourself, a freight made a little more tedious for being intimated as unreasonable, inappropriate, and bullying —picking on the poor Christian girl just trying to get through the night terrors like the rest of us— an innocent doing something "benign" and "wholesome" providing some small solace and satisfaction that I would deny her? rofl!
Dude! Not that benign as it turns out! Decidedly, not that wholesome! Beneath a thin veneer beats a heart of matchless mendaciousness, is my experience. The way it rolls in the bible belt, friend, imo.
And, the so the question —apart from fallacy— appears begged in my humble estimation:
How much _is_ unreasonable, inappropriate, or bullying given a history _there_ — uncomfortable as that makes us feel, stacked against a book seemingly unable to field sensitively good spirited questions about same?
Maybe its not what we talk about but what we _don't_ talk about that is important, eh?
¥
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Very well said, Alfred. I agree.
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I've certainly seen the light! I think Jeremy should ask Heidi back for a 3rd visit, but have you and Alfred on a party-line set-up, so you could question her. If you don't mind, I'd like her to be held personally responsible and explain the entire Spanish Inquisition and the persecution and subjugation and destruction of native Indian cultures in the American Southwest and through-out Central and South America. I would also like Heidi to explain why Jesus appeared to her a number of times, but has not reportedly appeared to Mother Teresa (who in her secret diary reported that she felt totally abandoned by Jesus and God). I also hope you nail Heidi to the wall on the entire blood sacrifice thing, and vicarious atonement via Jesus. In other words, Heidi has a lota 'splain'n to do! Her simple little visitation with Jesus and her simple categorization of paranormal entities into good and bad is obviously an oppressive act that covertly seeks to demonize all pagan religions (like Wicca) and will result in the fall of Science and the beginning of another Dark Age. She must be stopped!
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It's about time we had a responsible party to answer for this. I'm with you! lol
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I hope that Jeremy will ask the following people to appear on his Podcast, since they have the intellectual capacity and audacity to still profess a belief in Jesus Christ, BUT from a modern progressive point-of-view. Yet let's not mince words! Jesus is Jesus, and the promotion of this mincing upstart, this myth that has kept us from achieving travel to other star systems by now, the symbol of everything backward and anal in our society MUST STOP!
The following hit list is a good start:
Matthew Fox (with his "Cosmic Christ" nonsense), Paul Ferrini (with his mystical perspective on Jesus' teachings), Marcus Borg (indepth researcher into ancient Biblical texts, revisionist of the latter, and modern interpreter of the Jesus myth), and the Unity Church (a New Thought metaphysical Christian church based on Jesus' practical teachings). Of course, there are the more traditional Southern Baptist mega-church types like Joel Osteen (wit the teeth that glow in the dark), but I suggest beginning with the progressive Christian apologists and work your way to the bottom feeders. Once they have been decimated, perhaps you can take on Islam, although I doubt Jeremy will find many guests! Also, they tend to put out holy death contracts on anyone who dares question their faith. And their sense of fashion sucks.
Well, good luck to you. I am sure once Christianity is dust, we will have cures to all diseases, flying cars, Jedi Knights, and interstellar travel. I bet we even finally get invited into the Federation of Planets - Dr. Sprinkle will be so thrilled!
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Sure, Heidi should field questions. It could be that she has credited her assertions in the only way she knows how, whether or not that satisfies my curiosity or sense of the phenomena. It's her experience and I would probably still choose a different conclusion.
But I don't get the sense that's really what's going on here. Looks to me as though some would rather rake her over the coals for what she doesn't know. We can't all know the same things at the same time. We're just not wired that way, thank goodness or we wouldn't be discussing anything!
Rightness is a much larger institution than religion. We bathe, eat, sleep and breathe feeling righteous and right. That's what we _don't_ talk about.
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Never met a Wiccan I didn't like, but that said, Ms. Hollis fronts for all that as the veneer I wrote about above, as nice as she is.
So did my Mom.
Did my Mom have splainin' to do... no, she did what guys like yourself, which is to say charmless reactionaries, inculcated she _should_ be doing. You know, toeing the party line and propping up the status quo like a good little Catholic girl.
Ironically, it's the charmless reactionaries with the most residual splainin'to do, is my experience.
...And thanks for being so non-confrontationally helpful. I'm sure tempers would have already flared but for your calm demeanor and measured tone.
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This is reminding me of a long car ride with my mother in law, who explained to me that the KKK was simply a southern neighborhood group - like a gardening club - that got a lot of bad press from the liberal media. It's just a matter of opinion is all. Who's to say who's right...except, of course, for the fact they hang people. So, I get it. We believe every story from everyone, especially if they mention Jesus and seem 'at peace.' I just wish those gay folk in NYC and NO were a little less overt. It could've saved lots of lives.
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Just call me a charmless, reactionary dudette, if you will. LOL
Do I sound measured? Nah. I like you. I read your stuff in UFO mag. I like your mendacity. In this instance, I just think there's this desire to educate Ms. Hollis.
Not a bad thing, but she's busy tampering her devils and if it works for her, I think she should be allowed her solution. She also sounds young so there's much time and room for her to meander in some direction that may feel better later in life.
I've just had to run from a few devils in my own time too. Now that I'm feeling ready to confront them, I don't want any well meaning guy poking me with a stick.
So I'm not disallowing my personal agenda and projection here. Just saying that it takes time to get from here to there.
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Geeze, whw. What thread are you reading? Who asked you to believe anyone?
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...Then don't write a book? That's just asking for some righteous stick-poking, for my money!
¥
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Touche.
If there is a venue for questioning Heidi, have at it with the well intentioned questions.
Are you really going to buy the book? LOL
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c.c.
But... That's the intimation isn't it? Slap a Jesus appellation on it for instant respectability, a cloak of relevancy, a mantle of authority --tried and true in 2000 years of sweetness and light. Isn't that the appeal... believe? Beyond all credulity, believe?
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Good. I don't buy the story. I'll catch her when that meandering path leads to something other than a faith based explanation.
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I don't really get that from Heidi, Alfred, not the sweetness and light thing. What I got is that she sought relief and she found it, was incredulous, and fully adopted the belief system to rid herself forever of whatever was haunting her.
Why not write a book?
We all believe beyond credulity, don't we? If not in the everyday mundane, we still hold something near and dear that others would criticize.
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But that's not what she said. She didn't find Christ through her experience, it happened in the opposite order. She was a devout christian and had an experience that she interpreted into something resembling her world view - or it appears that way. If you ate, drank and breathed Star Wars and then had a visitation from a character that looked like Darth Cheney, we'd be immediately suspicious. It makes the story less credible. And to _his_ credit, Jeremy held her feet to the fire throughout the interview. He didn't give her an open forum to deliver a sermon. My sense of it was that she became less bubbly and more sullen as time went on. I just think its only fair to expect the same level of objectivity from her as we'd expect from anyone else with a tale of anomalous visitation. The problem with interviewing someone who sees Jesus, is it comes down to a question of faith. That's all I ever meant to say, despite how the conversation developed. I also think there's a difference between saying something odd is happening, and saying you know the answer. She's obviously a nice girl, and nobody is poking her with sticks. It may have been Jesus - who the Hell knows - but based on her interview, I tend to doubt it.
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I hear you whw. I doubt it too.
I was really coming from what she said in her first interview, which, woe is me, is where I may have gotten the wrong impression about how she interpreted the events in the first place. (But I'll take your word for it because I really don't want to revisit either of them.)
The two interviews are very different in tone or that's at least how I view them. I felt she was more honest about her experiences in the first.
The poking with sticks thing though ... I didn't mean that anyone who questioned her belief was abusing her in any way. Just meant that when someone is desperate for a crutch, sometimes we need to allow her the crutch she grasps.
It's really easy for me to criticize her solution to the problem she faced, but the real issue is her terror, something I can blithely dismiss because I haven't experienced what she did. That horrendous terror can't be dismissed. It sent her in her most familiar place for comfort.
But I've already said that. I'll quit.
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Oh, I sympathize with irrational and horrendous terror - believe me. And I don't mind someone with a crutch, either, unless it's used more like an aggressive instrument - like a club. I didn't listen to the first interview at all, so I may not be getting the full picture. I'm just going on what she said in the second.
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"I like your mendacity"
What-what-what?
You like my departures from truth?
You have the advantage of me, ma'am. I don't know what to make of that.
¥
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Good grief, I did say that, didn't I. My apologies. Was thinking "tenacity," but trying to answer your post in the order that you posed questions wherein you mentioned matchless mendaciousness ... my brain fart.
Thanks for not having blasted me. I do not consider you a liar.
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I bow in the Elizabethan sense, ma'am. At least you know I'm not hair-triggered, eh?
alienview@roadrunner.com
> www.AlienView.net
>> AVG Blog -- http://alienviewgroup.blogspot.com/
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True enough.
I'm not particularly measured in my responses either. (Although that isn't such a good thing!) LOL
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cc;
Thing is... all of that was for "Anon" and I was being a tad sarcastic...
¥
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Oops.
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These beings, whatever they are, certainly know how to put on a good show. I believe that Heidi believes she has encountered Jesus, but I don't believe that she has. The reason to draw a cautionary line in the sand is that many "abductees"/"contactees" report meeting Jesus, Mary and a whole host of religious figures. This is not a new story.
What is very telling, which others here - including Jeremy - have mentioned, is the fact that right after this Jesus encounter, she's immediately presented with a new scenario, one that is much darker, filled with sinister beings that attempt to make her doubt her encounter. The word scenario, which Heid used, is really the appropriate description for both events. They are scenarios, to what end no one can be sure, but scenarios all the same. Both staged by the same beings to gauge her reaction and the extent of successful deception perhaps?
Scanning through some of Karla Turner's books on this subject, who has interviewed many an abductee, you'll hear very similar refrains:
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Do not be afraid, it communicated to Pat. You are the chosen child. We will not harm you.
Pat turned around and saw several taller white entities coming into the bedroom. When the room was filled with the strange beings, a sparkling shaft of light came down through the ceiling. As it coalesced, Pat saw in the midst of the light a figure which she perceived as a blond-haired, blue-eyed Jesus, in a resplendent robe. He took Pat's right hand and said, Do not be afraid, my child. These are mine, gesturing to the beings who were standing all around the room.
The Jesus figure looked at Pat and said, I am the light of the world. Then he was again surrounded by the sparkling shaft of light, which ascended back into the ceiling and took him with it. [Taken, Karla Turner]
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Some of these beings don't bother with the Jesus disguise, but do employ the same intense emotional manipulation:
Anita's relationship with the Tans, unlike her one impersonal encounter with the Gray, involves a different degree of intimacy, apparently as part of their deliberate programming of the abductee. "I have never sensed the dislike that I did with the Gray," Anita reported. "[The Tans] seem to be very concerned with making us feel love for them."
But Anita has proven to be quite aware of this psychological manipulation on the aliens' part and has thus been able to see through some of their intentions or motivations.
"I recall one [Tan] looking into my eyes," she described from an encounter, "and making me feel extreme love from him. I put my hands on his face and said, Too bad it isn't real, meaning the feeling of love that he was projecting into my soul." [Taken, Karla Turner] (continued below...)
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Compare the above with how Heidi described how she felt in the presence of Jesus:
"The love that comes off him is just so thick, it just floats in the air towards you. Overwhelms you, essentially."
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This next excerpt is a continuation of how "Pat" rationalizes her experiences with Jesus and the other entities:
"In my abductions," Pat has said, "I have never gotten a feeling of evil. In fact, I felt most protected while in the presence of the beings. Some people may say that the beings have the power to control what you feel and think at the time of the abduction, which they most certainly do. But I am hanging on to the childlike faith that Jesus tried to teach us and believe that what I felt was true and good. Why would an all-loving God allow little children to be abducted if the beings were evil and meant to do us harm? I don't believe God would allow it. Even so," Pat conceded, "there are things which the beings do that seem wrong to us and seem violent." [Taken, Karla Turner]"
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In addition to noting the variety of physical types [grays, whites, insectoid, troll, dwarf, Jesus], it is important to realize that every combination of these different entities have been reported working together in abduction scenarios. It is hard to conclude, then, that the various types are really separate groups carrying out separate functions or missions. [Taken, Karla Turner]
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With regards to Heidi's experience, I don't think it's a big leap to conclude that the Jesus entity was working in collusion with the more sinister entities in this twisted, little passion play. If in fact, entities had anything at all to do with this. The description sounds a lot like what those undergoing an altered state of consciousness experience, including the abrupt changes to environment and tone. Not that we really understand what consciousness shifts are about either, but that might be a more fruitful direction to explore in her case.
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It could have been anything -- all the descriptions have been hot swappable for years. You can find any characteristic related to any reported entity in abduction lit over the last ten years. I don't think we can guess at alien behavior using human motives and logic. And I agree, to an extent, that we all relate things to our own life experience - and that colors our perspectives (what else do we have to have to use?) But I also think there's some sort of a threshold. Even if she only wants to find out for herself - leaving book sales out of it - wouldn't she want to look a little deeper into her experience? Wouldn't she want to eliminate the possibility she 'created' this experience since it seems so suspicious to an outsider? Wouldn't she be a little bit more curious about it? My guess is she would.
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whw wrote:
It could have been anything
Agreed.
Wouldn't she want to eliminate the possibility she 'created' this experience since it seems so suspicious to an outsider?
Agreed. The sheer lack of curiosity is troubling to those of us who do wish to understand more. Otherwise you're dealing with a matter of faith, and faith isn't questioned.
Her experience remains just that: hers. Is it meaningful to anyone else? Probably not, especially if she's not willing to look beyond the staged performances that were for her benefit alone.
I think Jeremy handled the interview well, and did ask her why she hadn't considered these other options. Until she does, I really feel I have nothing to learn from her experiences as they reside in the superficial realm of the unexamined.
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So what does it all come down to? People rationalize their experiences in whatever way that makes sense for them. If Heidi needs to believe that she's encountering Jesus, so be it. The drawback to this approach is that it leaves the encounter at a very superficial level. What lies beneath is really much more interesting and quite possibly more valuable to her and the rest of us. Have her back when she's decided to dig a bit deeper.
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Wow! That has to be the most satisfactory conclusion to a contentious thread as has ever been wrought in cyberspace! That's without a shred of facetiousness, yea and verily.
Golf clapping over here! [g].
¥
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Here's my issue: In the Bible itself we're told on several occasions to beware of false prophets, to watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing and remember that Satan himself can appear as a being of light. So when the inevitable question comes up about "How do you KNOW it was Jesus." the response "You just know" doesn't sit well with me. If these beings can manipulate us so totally, then who's to say they can't convince you 100% that you're chatting' with JC? And maybe, just maybe if they detect a hint of doubt, why wouldn't they throw a little "We're gonna get you" pantomime in for good measure just to reinforce the idea, slinking away when you say the "Magic word" ON CUE? Jeremy's point about the need for "faith" strikes a chord too. What does god need us to believe in him for anyway? Wasn't he here first? No points for logic. And no, nothing should be sacred here. I'm not saying you have to go for the jugular right away but pressing a little more into those uncomfortable areas might produce more concrete results...
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I would just like to say to CBF, you crack me up! lol. On another note, Heidi seems to giggle at alot of things after she says them, I believe in a lot of things, God, other forms of life, other dimensions, I do believe animals have feelings (lol CBF), ghosts, demons, HAARP and weather control, etc etc, you name it Im pretty much open to it, mainly because I havnt experienced them for myself so how am I to know if they are or arent real. But I dont understand, why did God pick Heidi to talk to, why would he heal her and not any other person worse off and just tell her "finish the book", what makes her special and not the rest of us? She says this is her third incarnation, 2nd human, and that their are only 8 of her kind left, that just sounds a little funny to me. I havnt had the encounters she has had obviously, but to a person who believes in a lot (me) she just sounds like shes a couple grams short of a sack. And this bit about a translucent being coming through her roommates car windshield? Id love to spend a week with her to see all these wonderful beings, shadow, God, Alien, that she sees all the time. I mean is God going to get angry if I arm myself to the teeth while waiting for these beings to do their worst? Will God get made at me if I see these "rotten reptilians" and blast them back to whatever galaxy they came from? Theres just so much information from here and there its hard to believe that one person has contact with everything you believe in. I think ill put it in the "gray basket" as well. It is definitely very interesting indeed. I suppose ill find out on 2012 when I wake up and its just the next day, if not, Id like to think ill wake up blasting anything that moves! lol jk. click...
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I giggle a lot too in interviews (and life.) I think the reason God/Jesus/Aliens/Dungeon Master/The Matrix/Slash from Guns 'N' Roses picked her is because she's cute. I seriously do. It's not more shallow than "Finish the book."
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I really wish I could understand many people's approach to this whole experience/alien thing. The bottom line is, this is happening, and it's happening differently to many, many people who've been through it. Reality is incredibly vast and to attempt to quantify or prove (photographs, physical materials) these experiences that are other dimensional just seems so ridiculous to me. Can you measure love or fear? Can you take pictures of this? Are these things real? Well, of course they are, at least as much as anything can be real, but I'm not asking anyone to prove it. These things are hyper personal and even if an experience takes place and you can't "prove" it, it changes the person it has happened to and therefore effects and changes their reality. From there, all I can say is to reboot your idea of what reality is. There's plenty of information out there on trans-personal development and the like. Broaden your scope is what I recommend.
I don't believe in anything but yet I believe in everything. It's all no-thing. We need to get over ourselves.
Doesn't it seem silly to believe in big eyed creatures from space and in the same breath discount someone else's experience with a figure from a major religion simply because you choose not to believe in him? I don't believe in the bible, but I do feel there's an energy or a being that they who wrote it misconstrued as a means of controlling the masses. Is that really so far fetched when we're talking about creatures that snatch us up in the night and play with our genitals? I think it's incredibly narrow minded to not separate the man made religion that came much later than the forces they claim to represent and have sole understanding of. The spirit predates any sort of symbolism, institution, or mechanism that human kind could ever devise or apply to it.
I've had experiences of all kinds since I was little, and the very nature of them forces one to reexamine EVERYthing you think you know or believe. To discount ANYthing while doing this is self defeating.
Okay, rant over
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The series have been around for a long time and really creating waves, in order to make it happening, the buzz is that, it is going to creates history.
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