Culture Of Contact Episode 46: Christopher Knowles
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Chris Knowles is a comic book artist and writer. He's also author of the Eagle Award-winning, Our Gods Wear Spandex: The Secret History of Comic Book Heroes and the forthcoming Official X-Files book. He's also been hanging out with Jacques Vallee lately.
Aliens, archetypes, occult, Chris Carter, Alan Moore, the fate of the original author of The Secret, the latest from Jacques Vallee, and a mini debate with the host on bringing spirituality into ufology. Oh there's something for everyone in this episode. And be sure to check out Chris' excellent blog RIIIIIGHT HERE.
Hey, I get the first comment. Lemme listen to the podcast, and I'll say something smart.
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MP3 VERSION OF PODCAST
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http://tinyurl.com/33y5a5
Look for the file named:
CoC Ep 46- Chris Knowles.mp3
It's about 22MB.
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I used to live in NYC, and now I live in a dusty little town in idaho.
And - Right on! I just got to listen to two opinionated folks go at it. One from the Boston, and one a real-deal New Yorker.
Do you realize how freekin' polite the rest of america is? It was good to hear two people NOT being shy, or mamby pamby.
good for you.
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Good show. I wish you guys could have talked about how physical or not the alein abduction phenomena is at motr length.
To me and things that I have read I think it can be physical if it needs to be. I also wonder if any person who witnesses an abduction where the person has not left the bed can hear the beginning stages of one. Ya know that really loud buzzing sound that is right in your ear.
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I wonder if he'd even agree that there are nonphysical aspects to this beyond relegating abductions to purely psychic communications.
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Okay, I gotta chime in on a few issues.
1) The issue of abduction being NON-physical.
There are plenty of well documented stories of people being physically missing, and then later reporting abductions. Some cases where police are called, and searches begun, especially with children. Budd Hopkins and Dave Jacobs have loads of this kind of data.
The research is full of abduction reports that don't take place in night time bedrooms. The lonesome road is a common one, but there are well documented cases in full daylight.
There is an abductee and author named Ida Kanneberg, and she wrote a series of books, and some of the information is channeled. So, it's questionable, true enough. But, the info she received says: (I'm paraphrasing) THat most of the abduction experiences happen on a purely mental level, and no physical ship or crew is dispatched to preform the contact. It is complicated and uses a lot of energy to do the actual physical abductions, but they do occur. For "them" it is much easier to simply use psychic energies to create the illusion of an abduction. The person experiencing the contact can't tell the difference, the illusion is so complete. "They" have an agenda, and they can get the desired effect without actually traveling, and it makes no difference to the person, they believe physical contact has taken place.
To me, the story Ida tells feels true. So, I think that SOME abductions are psychic, and SOME are physical.
2) Channeling.
Both of you immediately agreed that channeled stuff is crap. I am going to lobby that SOME channeled stuff comes across as genuinely from a different source. Some of it feels like it's truly from a "higher" level (not sure of a good term for this). The IMMANUEL SPEAKS series of books and THE COURSE IN MIRACLES are both quite amazing. And, I'll add Ida Kanneberg. Her channeled stuff is so specific, and in a way - funny.
I've read some channeled stuff that I can dismiss as crap, true enough. But, there is a weird pattern, where people will claim to channel from the Pleadiens (Yes, I know, I feel dopey even typing that) and the story that emerges is full of good vs evil, migrations from Mars, sons turning against their fathers, death and re-birth - the stuff of mythology. It feels like they are tapping not into an "alien" voice, but they are tapping into the mysterious newosphere and mythic icons are emerging. The BOOK OF MORMON is a perfect example of "channeled" mythology, not from God, but our collective unconscious.
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Hi, Mike:
Why would aliens want to simulate an abduction scenario because we can't tell the difference anyway? Difference between that and what? Can you imagine what that conversation must have been like by our galactic overlords?
"Well, Kylgon, it seems abductions scare them shitless."
"That's okay, 5bliptu, because we can't physically abduct them for long anyway so we'll have to do it out of body."
"Hmmm...how can we make that more palatable for them?"
"I know! How about we make it exactly like abductions!"
Yeah!
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As for channeling... To me this is an unnecessary complication. It's useless information. Even if we take it by what you're saying--some of it might be real communication from aliens; some of it might be from our collective unconscious--and then add to that blatant lies--how is it useful? At least between the first two categories we can't tell the difference. I have yet to see any useful channeled information. Then again I haven't been looking. I haven't read A Course On Miracles but more than a few people have said that my spiel sounds like that. If true, then the author might as well not have channeled anything because it's in us to know in the first place.
If you're from a distant star system and you're sending us channeled information, give us something tangible. I'm with the materialists on that one. Otherwise it's either nonsensical or something we already know if we know how to look. This is one of the reasons Greer is so very, very full of shit: He alleges that he speaks to aliens via meditation. He alleges the U.S. government has free-energy devices based on alien technology. Why doesn't he just ask the aliens for the schematics himself rather than waiting for the government to disclose it?
Oh, right. Because he's lying and just wants our money.
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Jeremy asks:
"Why would aliens want to simulate an abduction scenario because we can't tell the difference anyway?"
Mike Replies:
Why? Oh Jeeez, I don't have the foggiest. I won't even TRY to tackle the "why" question.
I read of one account where a wife saw a weird blue glow around her husband when he was in bed at night. The next morning he reported an abduction memory. Who knows? Was the blue glow a psychic energy vortex that implanted an experience that never happened?
My point is, that this thing is weirder that in initially appears. Rather than the polarity of "either / or" it seems to be "both / and"
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Jeremy asks:
"It's useless information... ...how is it useful?"
Mike Replies:
Here's an example. I went thru a really difficult period of rather serious clinical depression throughout the early to mid-90's. I tried a lot of stuff, medication, light therapy, yoga, huge amounts of exercise... etc... But the one thing that (I really believe) actually solved the oppressive issues for me was a series of channeled books. There is a series of three titled CONVERSATIONS WITH GOD. They presented a nice way to look at the universe, and they felt like intuitive truths that, at some deep level, I just knew anyway. I'll add that the channeled text may very well be from the collective unconscious, rather than The Big Guy.
So, is channeled information useful? To me, I gotta say yes.
(Oh boy, I just re-read the stuff above, and I sound like a guest on Oprah. The corniness of it isn't lost on me)
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My point is, that this thing is weirder that in initially appears. Rather than the polarity of "either / or" it seems to be "both / and"
Maybe. But I'm saying that whether true or not the channeled info is useless, except on that personal level that you're talking about. If you get something out of it, great. It's the same thing with Billy Meier or human crop circle makers. Could aliens be influencing people to hoax stuff so that their message gets out under the "It's the message that's important, not the messenger," clause?
Sure.
Lot's of things are possible.
But it's not probable and it's completely unverifiable at this point so it's useless as evidence of anything. Channeled books speak to you, the Bible speaks to millions, the Koran to millions, Virgin Mary appears in a corn chip and makes her followers cry tears of joy at the affirmation.
That's all crap as far as I'm concerned. At least some of it is just pure wish-fulfillment crappola (Tostitos Brand Virgin Mary) and some of it is crap in the way that it isn't useful in discerning signal from noise (channeled information).
Personally, like I said, I'm not sold on channeled info because I've yet to see anything I don't already know or couldn't read in a book. But given my circumstances of late, I'm open to the possibility. But they have to show us something more concrete than platitudes revamped Buddhism. Shit, I give you that for free!
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Jeremy wrote:
"But I'm saying that whether true or not the channeled info is useless, except on that personal level"
Mike replies:
Okay - but isn't one of the strangest aspect of the abduction phenomenon the 'personal level' that it seems to interact with the abductee. Why are some people reporting blissful angels, and some report creepy little doctors?
Why do you have an I AM experience, and some are left confused and frightened?
Maybe it IS manifesting itself on a completely PERSONAL level.
Maybe the re-vamped buddhism is just a way to personally connect with different individuals? Who knows.
This is a big weird subject, and there is LOTS of strange stuff in the mix. Be careful of pointing out that Budd Hopkins is ignoring data that falls outside his preconceived conclusions. Because the weird channeling is part of the big data base. And, it's easy to ignore - but it's a very real sub-chapter in the big phenomenon.
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How is channeling a real sub-chapter? I'm gonna keep it in my gray box until I see some evidence that it's anything more than subconscious material.
Let me ask you this: Is anything more than spiritual "knowledge" given via channeling? I watched a youtube vid where Andrija Puharich claims that some channelings from "The Nine" produced mathematical equations that still could not be solved to this day. THAT is interesting. If true, I'd rethink it. (Generous of me, I know, I know.)
But show us. Or maybe he has and I just am ignorant of it. Anyone know?
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Yes - The Gray Box is the perfect place for channeled stuff. Don't put it in the waist basket, that would be a mistake.
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Hi great show, I enjoyed the debate. I do think that often times people debating a certain point actually essentially agree but are merely differing in terminology.
But one comment stuck out at the beginning of the interview. I do wonder how you can say that the ufo experience potentially has a spiritual element, an element that exists outside of ordinary physical experience, and at the same time say that channeling is crap. If someone is, via whatever means, tuned in to this element that exists outside of ordinary physical experience, then is he not in essence channeling?
How do you reconcile your serious consideration of a spiritual element and your casual dismissal of channeling? (p.s. I'm not a channeler or a promoter of any particular channeler)
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Hi, Brandon:
Please read my above responses and if it's still unsatisfactory, I'll try to weasel my way out a different way.
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You have an entertaining podcast Jeremy but sometimes you really piss me off. Your elitist pseudo stay behind to instruct us ascended master stick is really wearing think Jeremy.
First of all you honestly don't think you could hold a conversation with a Christian who is interested in this phenomenon and come away with any new insights just because I'm a Christian?
So I'm a Christian and 100% of Religion is Bullshit? It's more fun to pick on harmless fundamentalist Christians then say oh i don't know Fundamentalists of Islam that
killed 3000 people in the same city you live in 6 years ago? You think they might be slightly more dangerous or worthy of discussion considering the shit were in now?
And another thing that's been bothering me. So now because you had some prolonged masturbating sessions and stuck your finger up your ass a few times your a master of Kundalini energy?
I really think you need to be taken down a few pegs and realize you don't have any answers just like the rest of us. OH but i forgot
You no longer need to seek answers you already have them! Why the fuck you even do this show anymore? Just to tell your guest they got it wrong and you got it right?
Excuse me if this is a lot of vitriol aimed at you Jeremy but you really have had this coming.
Ok that was weird we just had a 5.6 Earthquake as i was typing this close to were i live, i really felt that. That was weird.
In all honesty the quake happened around the time i was thinking why don't you show us some proof Jeremy but i didn't type it, probably just coincidence, but I'm being honest here.
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I rest my case. Do not anger me again or it will be a tidal wave.
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This is the Jeremy Vaeni i like.
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Okay, Ward:
You've been a good commentator here so I'll try to give you a good response. A real one, anyway.
1.) Christian, Muslim, atheist, agnostic--it's all the same. it's all an answer. In answers are comfort and not anything more where Truth is concerned. I pick on Christians because they're readily available here in this land and the fundies are a bunch of militaristic whiners. I'd love to blame Muslims for 9/11. That would be easy enough, but actually I don't believe they were behind it. I think they were pawns in the game for global hegemony by our fine government. So really that argument falls on deaf ears.
By saying I don't want to speak to Christians about it (and here substitute Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, Whateverists), I mean that I don't think alien abductions need to be treated as a belief system. I don't see how that's helpful to compare one's experience with another's faith.
I'm sure holding a conversation with you or anyone of any persuasion could bear new insights on this--because of you as a person, regardless of your faith. But the moment a person says, "It's angels from heaven like in the bible" -- THAT'S where I would cringe and walk away and THAT'S what I mean by it.
2.) Who am I to say all answers are the same because I stuck a finger up my ass? I don't have any answers. Neither do you. Answers are the enemy. Only of the two of us apparently I'm the only one who gets it, which lead to the blissful sensation of jamming my index straight up the pooch.
Seriously, I wouldn't believe me either.
3.) I need to be taken down a peg.
That's true but not by anyone other than me. I do have my own issues and I'll deal with 'em when I get around to it. But I think you mean that I am disrespectful of others' beliefs and I have to ask what is respectful about them? What is respect, period? You go about your life and I go about mine. Neither of us interferes with the other. That's about as close to a definition that doesn't involve "fear" and "authority" that I can come up with. But if you want me to keep silent about the fact that religion is complete horseshit because that pisses you off, change the channel. Does that mean that if we were to meet and you were to tell me about your conversion experience I'd say, "Well, you know, Ward, what you experienced is still an illusion because you've attached it to a Christian image and blah, blah, blah'' No! But on my own show I'm going to say what's on my mind sometimes. If that's rude or offensive, so be it.
No one likes it when it hits home for them.
4.) I had this coming.
On this we agree. I can't believe it's taken this long for the backlash to begin. And I'm not being facetious. I didn't think I could get away with going unchallenged for this long.
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Now the question for you is, what would you do if you were me? You saw that the key to finding truth is not to seek it and that billions of people were just plain wrong. Do you say it out loud? Pretty narcissistic if you do. You have the answer and everyone else is wrong. It's all around them, muddied up in the very texts they believe in. Do you tell them? Are you a snob for pointing it out?
I dunno. Maybe I should have kept quiet. I don't see a way to say "all paths are a lie" and then respect the paths. I understand that people are on 'em and will continue to be no matter what I say. And I know that the inevitable smart answer is "Yes but this is just your path." And that isn't true. I'm not on a path. I'm pointing something out that is either true or it isn't. It's really that black and white. Not "Jeremy's truth." Truth or isn't. Do I need to wear a loin cloth to say that out loud, or some robes? Do I have to smile wide and inviting as I say it?
No, unfortunately, you're stuck with this arrogant asshole telling you "it's truth or it isn't." Who am I? An insightful (if I'm lucky) loser with a podcast. That's what ya got, take it or leave it. In fact leave it, because then I become your illusion. But that sounds like I'm telling you what to do again. Conundrum after conundrum.
But then maybe that's the beauty of this. Fat white guy with no former interest in this SEES. It doesn't have to be a holier-than-thou type or a scholar or someone deeply steeped in religious ideals. Just some dude. Kinda a nice guy? Kinda an asshole? It doesn't matter who. It's either truth or it isn't.
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Crap, I know I'm long-winded. Sorry. But one more thing: I'm not going to outlive my welcome so don't worry about that. I'm sick of hearing my voice too. I do get sick of my own BS because every second I speak I'm avoiding that which I speak--which is something Alan Steinfeld said in a round-about way.
See how ya can't even say "that which" without sounding like an asshole? Seriously--what am I supposed to do? Take my own advice and shut up.
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Ugh, how i the world am i supposed to reply to this? Forget all the individual points, i started listening
to your pod casts because you were a much needed infusion in this field. A breath of fresh air to this whatever
the hell field this is.
As for the Christian thing, I just don't understand how you can criticize people that follow the teaching of a man on the mount who essentially spoke about peace and love.
What set me off this episode was your guest Christopher Knowles stating their is no physical evidence for abductions.
People are physically missing from locations. Budd Hopkins told you about a case were the ivy was cut in a perfect circle on the outside of the wall. Ritzmann had a pack of matches from a truck stop hundreds of miles away from where he could not possibly be after an abduction or something like it.
Fucking UN officials see a woman floated out of a high rise building if Budd is to be believed. All of these thing are Extreme real world physical evidence.
To the point I've always liked you Jeremy. Perhaps it's your style or your brutal truthfulness that i like. Amybe it's that your a real guy that cares enough
to respond to his listeners and have real in depth discussion on your pods cast and on these message boards. The visits to the UFO conferences, the insights into Norry being nothing but a glorified DJ have been brilliant and hilarious and left me laughing so hard i cried.
My whole frustration started a few pods cast ago when you said something to the effect i don't think i should of done
this podcast. At that point i was getting very confused.
I just don't understand what are we doing here? Why am i listening to any of this. Because I'm seeking, I'm still
looking for what THIS is all about. Your telling me the pursuit of answers is fruitless and when i get that i can
never get it, then I'll get IT.
But isn't IT an ANSWER? what the Hell?
So instead of going with this oneness consciousness you evolved into you Jeremy stayed behind to try to explain it to us flatlanders.
Language is really failing me here but how the hell did you expect to explain it to us mere mortals? With language or something else?
Is it the process of asking questions?
So all these programs, all these people i listen to all the stories that scare the shit out of me
Jeff Ritzmann and his puppet like alien in his room at 9 and the huge gong sound as he claps his hands together and the incredible
fear that was overpowering.
Whitley Streiber and his first regression and the blood curling screaming he did as that thing stuck a device to his forehead.
Even you Jeremy with that ancient but stupid being basking in the glow of just being alive in your body or the
dojos in hell you saw.
They fascinate me and scare the shit out of me and i keep listening.
Do i need to stop searching so I'll "Get it"
I mean for the Love of Pete! What's a guy to do?
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First, let me say that yes, I know I didn't call him on the physical nature of abductions. I actually thought about chiming in with the Linda Cortile case but ultimately decided I didn't want to do another confrontational interview. I wanted to hear what he, as an outsider looking in, thought. I didn't even mean to start an argument about spirituality. I just wanted to nail down what he meant. And if he "believed in" some form of consciousness outside of the brain, how could he not factor that in when talking about an advanced race?
Some interviews are for battle and some are perspective. I wanted his perspective.
I'm not sure if the podcast where I said I shouldn't have done it meant that episode or the whole show. I'm glad I've done the show. I know I'm fortunate to have gotten great guests--well shit, starting off with Whitley & Anne Strieber. I don't think they've ever been interviewed together. And then Whitley again--I mean who am I to this guy? No one, really. And to then be "taken seriously" enough for people to want to come on here is, to use a word, an honor. Befriending Dave and Jeff? Are you kidding me? I love those guys. Getting stuff out of Hopkins I hadn't heard before, acting the fool at conferences, Lynne Kitei singing--Oh fuck, man, it's been a ride! And you guys. It amazes me that more and more people have started commenting and even though I'm harsh sometimes I don't take any of it for granted.
But I don't want to outlive my welcome and I really do get sick of my own voice. At one point I was doing this show, the Book of Thoth show, writing, directing--all the fun stuff but too much of it. I burned out a bit. So there's the one-two punch: sick of my own shit and burned out to boot.
BUT... to the bigger issue here - You want answers. I say stop seeking and there be answers. I'm only talking about "spiritually" or whatever word you want to use. I am not talking about aliens. I don't have any answers about aliens. I don't know why they don't land. I suspect highly that I am right--but I don't know. I do know that whatever this other thing is we call alien, we can't possibly be on equal footing with them until we figure out what we are--and that's where the spiritual mumbo jumbo comes in.
Because I am living with this other energy or energies that science does not even acknowledge, I know for a fact that there is this whole other piece of hidden biology in us--that is us--and that's at the very least. I can indicate this with the EEG. But forget me for a sec. I'm an example. Western medicine takes for granted that acupuncture works as a remedy for various ailments. They have no idea how it works, just that it does. It's even covered by my insurance policy!
Transcendental meditators have shown their brain chemistry changes when they go into meditative states.
These things are real and demonstrable. Even a pure materialist can sink his/her teeth into this.
So we've got all of this proof that there's more to us than what we live--concrete proof--even if that proof doesn't lead to an answer (yet).
Does it not follow that we truly, not as hyperbole but as a fact--we truly do not yet understand fully what a human is and can do?
And does it not also follow, then, that we haven't got a shot at understanding an advanced nonhuman race that may be fully actualized if we are not fully actualized? (We may not anyway--but we definitely won't from here looking up.)
Now how many people do you think actually ponder what I just pointed out? I'm guessing not many because most people just want to know why they don't land and no answer they come up with has to do with us not being actualized. Sure there's superficial Stan Friedman stuff "We're being quarantined; would you interact with war-faring barbarians like us?" But that's not the heart of it. We can draw peace accords and "all get along" and still not be actualized. We can have full government disclosure and still not be actualized. Can't hurt to nip that whole "actualized" thing in the bud before beginning our reach for the stars can it?
So that's my supposition about why aliens don't land based on my experience and really stewing over the questions.
Regardless of aliens, the spiritual issue remains. And it is this ultimate answer to what every philosopher will tell you is an unanswerable question: What am I? that you will experience when you stop looking. The ultimate answers that apply to you and me regardless of aliens exist in the NOW state, which can only be experienced when TIME is not there. Time is not there when you die psychologically. When the you dies completely Truth becomes you. A crude analogy is when you can't think of something because you're concentrating too hard but then when you forget about it, in the shower the next morning, it pops into your head.
Like that. But in 4-D.
Now I'm not saying that is the case, THAT IS THE CASE regardless of me saying it. Because it's universal you can see it. It's for everybody. If it's not then I am delusional or lying. I'm not wrong. Who needs religion when it's all right there waiting for you to stop trying so that it can be?
That sounds dogmatic because you've not experienced it. I have. I've also experienced the deep cleansing of giving my sins to Jesus. (I wrote about that in the first book so don't think I'm pulling a fast one on you to try to relate to you now.) Just as I'm completely fortunate to have this show and people's trust I'm also pretty damned lucky to have had experiences by which I can compare other like-experiences in this odd realm. (And in abductions I've had lucid dreams and a waking hallucination by which to compare.)
But okay. Maybe this is more helpful--Ask yourself if what I'm saying makes more sense than what you've got. Does it make more sense that you give yourself to Jesus and have a huge and real spiritual experience because Jesus is real when every other religion on the planet claims the same? Or does it make more sense that the act of giving up is what triggers the epiphany and the object or savior you give to is an illusion? (Jesus, Allah, Carrot Top. On that level they are all the same: prop comics.)
Which do you think makes more sense?
There's nothing wrong with believing in the teachings of Jesus or any of 'em (except Carrot Top). Of course all the stuff attributed to Jesus was good and revolutionary in its day. I'm not arguing the goodness of Jesus' words or of believing in them. I'm explaining that if you want to experience Truth first person and not take someone's word for it (mine, Jesus', Mel Gibson's) then you've got to dissolve. You've got to give up. Not because I said so but because the only way to reach NOW is for thought to stop. I'm just pointing it out, that's all.
And no, I'm not hyped on caffeine this time.
I do think maybe it was a mistake to have brought up my I AM shenanigans because it's confusing the issues...and yet I suspect heavily that it's important in all of this for the reasons stated above re: alleged aliens. I can't say with certainty but I can make a strong case. I also wonder if it wasn't a mistake because I do not want to be pegged as the New Age show. I'm not as open as some of you would like me to be and I'm just going to disappoint you in that respect eventually, if I haven't already.
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I have listened to most of Jeremy's podcasts and I have to say that I have a totally different take on what he conveys than what you seem to think he does. If anything, it seems Jeremy has gone out of his way to be as honest as he can be with everything he has experienced, even at possible embarrassment to himself, yet at the same time indicating that he doesn't have all the answers. Yes, he has had an "I Am" experience as have many people throughout the world but just because he can't actually put the experience into words and can honestly attest that no religion comes close to the "Truth", doesn't make him think he is an "ascended master" to everyone. Hell, I'm nowhere near having an "I Am" experience and I can concur that religion is bullshit, especially fundamentalist religion, be it Christian or Islam.
I think what Jeremy conveys is that everything we need to know about all that is, can be found within and is in fact already known if we just turn our egoic mind off long enough to glimpse it. Religion by its very nature is already outside of us therefore it is a dead-end road, if of course it is "Truth" that you are looking for. Now if religion works for you and you believe in all that it gives you then by all means I can respect that, and I believe Jeremy respects that too. But I don't think religion can tell me something I don't already know either.
You Said:
It's more fun to pick on harmless fundamentalist Christians then say oh i don't know Fundamentalists of Islam that
killed 3000 people in the same city you live in 6 years ago?
-I'm pretty sure that he would feel the same about any fundamentalist regardless of what religion. Christian history is no less devoid of atrocities than Islam or any other type of fundamentalism.
And I wouldn't say fundamentalist Christians are "harmless". Just look at our current administration and how religion has worked its way into areas that should be secular. Graduates of Pat Robert's Regent Law School have gotten many jobs in the Dept. of Justice and have used that vehicle to further their ideological agendas. Ask some of the fired U.S. Attorneys if fundamentalist Christianity is "harmless".
Take from this what you wish, but I just had to through my .02 cents in. I think you misinterpret what the show is about.
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Yeah! What Gary said! WAY better than what I said! I take what I said back!
(Note to self: Wait for people with tact to come to defense before showing hand. This way you look much, much better. And mysterious. We like mysterious. It makes us...oh...uh...is this thing on?)
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One more story:
I interviewed a fellow with some really oppressive ongoing abduction experiences. He's a super nice guy, but he was struggling with the intensity of the events.
He claimed he went thru a period of channeling, it just happened, and he associated it with the abduction experience.
He said he hated it. It didn't trust it, and he didn't understand it. He wanted it to end.
He said (and I like this quote) that: "I really had to work hard to atrophy this part of me, to make it go away."
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PODCAST LINKS
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Chris Knowles Blog:
http://secretsun.blogspot.com
Jacques Vallée Website:
http://jacquesvallee.net
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Okay, regarding that scene in V for vendetta where Evie gets tortured so V can show her how to live without fear, I'm gonna throw in my two cents and you make of it what you will...
When I was in college I took an elective which turned out to be probably the best subject I've ever taken (and I suppose my 98% passing grade in that course reflected that). What course? "Propaganda and the art of persuasion". In it we covered everything from WW2 propaganda (axis and allies) to advertising to SPIN and (yes, you guessed it) torture. As a result of that course I could now do... well, horrible things were I so inclined. More importantly however was the why behind the what.
With the whole Abu Grahib/Gitmo debacle people have come to associate torture with information. It's not about that at all. Torture is about CONTROL. It's about breaking someone down to the point where they become a void and then rebuilding them in your preferred image. In Evie's case, V stops torturing her right at this crucial break point, another day or two and she would have cracked. EVERYONE cracks. Or dies. Rest assured, it's not a positive process, regardless of the outcome.
You may choose to see it as V "freeing" Evie from her fear but in truth he is doing what all torturers do: reprogram the victim to their viewpoint. It's V's contention that Evie should live "without fear", not her own decision. If I were you, I'd be careful about promoting the "ends justify the means" as a positive notion. The people who wrote the PNAC documents felt that way too...
As for abductions, unless the "aliens" are telekenetically implanting things in people, I don't see how it can be anything OTHER than physically real.
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Points taken.
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John Mack's last book PASSPORT TO THE COSMOS had a lot of info comparing and contrasting the ufo abduction experience to the initiation rituals of the shaman.
Both can be quite brutal, and in the end, transformative.
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Yes but the point I'm making is that in the case of the Shaman (and in the fictional case of Evie) the end goal is positive. Doubly so in the case of the shaman as the intiate knows that the goal they are seeking must come at great price. I know this myself from my days back in the dojo. To achieve COMPETENCE, let alone mastery (ha!) of a particular technique meant hours on the mat, sore and aching muscles and the constant possibility of serious injury but it was worth it because the end goal was visible.
In the case of alien abductions there's simply no way to know what the end goal is, even if the "aliens" tell you what it is because you have no reason to trust them. If some abductees come to deem their experiences "transformative" then I submit it has more to do with how the abductee is framing it then it does with how the abductors are directing them. In fact it ties back into that course I mentioned: one of the most persuasive elements in our lives is the self. With minimal cues, we can often convince ourselves of just about anything.
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The V example was compelling argument, CapnG – at least equal to the shamanic transformation view (forgetting that the shamanic transformation wasn't always a positive one either). Thanks, I’ll remember that. There’s something we’re supposed to get about abduction (and life in general, for that matter), and I don’t think it tips to either physical or spiritual poles. And Galahad attained truth and was immediately whisked off to heaven by a band of angels (well, it’s the Malory I remember anyway). The most terrifying 3 or 4 seconds of my experience was the realization they wanted me - and 'me' in every sense of the word. They wanted my soul, my intellect and the meat of me - all at once. Had they wanted to impact my spirit somehow, and if the spirit was the key, why bother with the extra baggage?
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knowles mentioned grant morrison, writer of the comic 'the invisibles'. supposedly the wachowski bros. "borrowed" heavily from the series for the matrix. regardless - morrison is straight up genius in every conveivable way, especially in this disinfocon video.
part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gHOh4Cgkn0
i wanted to post this because 1. knowles mentioned morrison, 2. morrison talks about getting "abducted" (grain of salt - admits he was heavily drugged up at the time), and 3. his whole point is that the culmination of the individual is ultimately a psychotic neurotic mess, which is apparently a theme jeremy has been struggling with (individuated self vs. no self/enlightenment/oblivion).
another great show, jeremy. thanks.
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Okay - I loved the bit of dialog from Chris about Superman and the Boxer.
He said:
"Mythology and comics serve up some very interesting lessons... There was a superman story where a boxer was talking to Clark Kent, and the boxer and the boxer said, 'Look at me, I'm the champion of the world, but as long as Superman exists, I'm nothing, I'm a bum.' "
Maybe Steve Basset should read more comics.
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First post here but long time listener -- ok well, long as in six months...maybe seven.
I really liked this interview. Jeremy I LIKE how you hold yourself in this talk -- especially when things are said somewhat against your grain...but you just ride with it and get to the better stuff inside. You really are a great interviewer. Now don't let that get to your ego. :-o
I had to laugh -- this episode preceded the next podcast to coincidentally come up on my player from a site called the Psychedelic Salon. It was an old talk of Terrence McKenna posted this week where he was speaking at a UFO convention of all places ...lol
If you haven't heard of Terrence McKenna well this talk is as good an introduction as any.
( http://www.matrixmasters.net/blogs/?p=302 )
Jeremy I'd be really interested in hearing your perspective on Terrence's ramble.
cheers
Ian
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Thanks for coming out of the woodwork and posting. I haven't been on for much more than 7 months so you're old school in Vaeni Years.
I just listened to this interview and have to say I found it completely shocking...how much McKenna sounds like Paul Lynde.
But seriously, folks, it's really interesting and he makes a good case, one better than my stoner friends wanting to legalize pot for "medicinal purposes."
I'll talk more about this later.
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I am a religious man, and coming from a religious point of view, I believe UFOs have a strong spiritual contact with humans. I personally do not believe UFOs are extraterrestrials, but rather projections of our own energies or spirits visiting us. That is my take on the issue.
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Which do you lean more toward and why: projections of our energies or spirits visiting us?
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